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Hello everybody!

It’s been a little over a month now since our new mod-team has been formed and become active and a lot of things have happened since then: the backlog of all those things that are needed to keep a game running has been cleared up and optimized, the annoying bug that kept borking the game profile page over and over again faster than you could say “It’s working again!” has been hunted down and taken care of (if you have time, give Orange a big Thank You for that, that thing was nasty!), App cycles and the handling of the intro logs were tinkered with to make them run smooth again and the first phase of a new plot that stars opponents that are neither witches nor kishin eggs has been run! This isn’t the end, though!

We know that there there’s still a lot more that can be done to make the game enjoyable for everyone and this is where we need your help, wonderful players of Soul Campaign!

We want your feedback!

We need to know where we and the game are currently standing to make it fun for everyone. To do that we need your feedback! Be it concrit, things you’d like to see more of, things that annoys you, wishes, opinions, questions you have, stuff that has caught your eyes,… Give it to us!

In the following you will find comments with headers about things that we’d like to hear your thoughts on as well as for suggestions for things that could be done in the future. That said, don’t hesitate to make your own threads with headers if you want to talk about something that we forgot to cover too! You want to talk about it, we want to hear it!! We’d also like to ask you to be brutally honest with us (I don’t mean kick your manners to the bucket, but don’t pull any punches just because we are mods either)! We all want to play and have fun here, so it’s just fair that each voice and opinion has the same weight.

Thanks a lot for participating!

Update-Edit: Wow, a REALLY BIG thanks for all the comments that we’ve gotten so far! They’re all very helpful and we are taking them very seriously – with the result that official mod replies will be a little slow as we’re considering all the points you’ve made carefully.

Juu, first of all we owe you an apology for what has happened. We’re still figuring out what went wrong and how to address the concerns you brought up. Please be patient with us.

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Like above, just less positive.

I think I’m going to be rather repetitive, but here I go. Note: I have only spoken to Ami about this because, at the time, she was the only mod available; Ami has been a darling and I feel bad for bothering her so many times about the same old same old, but considering the things I want to do, the character I play and the in game environment I don’t have much of a choice.

Villain characters are crippled in Soul Campaign.

I can’t explain it any other way, because it’s true. This is a game not meant for villains, at least not villains that want to plot against Shibusen. There are many type of villains, you see, and there are villains who are willing to work with Shibusen or just be stir shit up without really wanting anything BIG to happen to change the outcome of the war. However, characters who are driven to make everything a living hell for Shibusen (and everyone) are incredibly crippled because the players greatly depend on the mods for all their villainous plotting. And I don’t mean setting fire to a tree; I mean actual plotting that would get our characters killed for it. Like working with the witches.

I wish I could play Demona without having to ask every single time “is this plot alright? Is it possible?” or to ask for a Witch NPC all the time for private logs, but that’s impossible. And I don’t think that can change because this game, the way it’s drawn and the way it’s made and the way it’s meant to be played, will always give leeway for the non villains, and leave the villains always very dependent. And they become even more dependent when our villains are so driven that they want to join the Witches and it’s IC for them to do so.

Now, I have found IC way of keeping Demona in city. It’s great, because she isn’t excluded. But at the same time, I never know what I can do with her. She is working with the Witches - awesome.

And now what?

I have planned and plotted and there is so much meant to happen – but then what? All I plan and plot is written and not played out. It’s assumed and not logged. It’s “Yes, that can happen”, but we skip over it and assume that maybe later it will mean something. And all of my plans to make my villain that one bitch that will back stab the living shit out of ALL of you, happen behind doors, assumed and not actually played out. And no character in game knows anything about it, no one actually even understands what is going on or if there IS something going on.

I can give you the example: while the riots and the kidnappings were happening, Demona had in her hands a wand that spread Madness given to her by the witches. And the idea was that while everyone was rioting, points of madness, for no reason at all, would show up all over the city. Randomly. It’d be a great introduction that something was up.
Yet, which character heard of madness infiltrating a supposedly safe and madness-free city? Which characters heard of overly abnormal riots involving people going mad? Which characters noticed it wasn’t a WAVE of madness, but just one or two people becoming affected, something that hasn’t happened before?

Every character knew it wasn’t witch related because there was no madness, there were no claims by the witches (they aren’t exactly shy when kidnapping people), there were no kishin eggs. But Demona WAS spreading madness, wasn’t she? Except there was no point from the mods or a NPC about it, and I can’t exactly make an open log for people to see Demona prancing around and happily waving a witch-made wand as she makes people go nuts.

So you see, I was dependent on the mods to make it go. And I can’t obviously force the mods to do it, but I can’t do it myself either.

I know it’s hard for villains to do their thing in this game. But I really want to change that. But I’m just a player and I can’t decide important plots for you guys. But it’s also so frustrating to just want it and develop it and try to make it happen, and then nothing does and we are still here waiting and waiting and I have been waiting since I joined with Demona for over A YEAR now. And it’s no wonder there are no other villains.

I’m not asking for you guys to do the gaming or the plotting for us. I can do that. I have my plot all planned out. But we need more support on the villain side. A lot more. And we need the mods to perhaps make use of the villains they have to make things more engaging. Again, thank you Ami, you have been a darling about this and I know you are trying hard too. But I’m here ready to throw Demona into deep shit and I still feel like the mods want solely to depend on the environment and the NPCS and not on their player base to make big BANGS happen.

I think it’s a lot more fun to create a game-wide plot with characters in game, rather than create a plot and hope the characters in game will go along.

Mmmn while there were characters that suspected and investigated the Madness angle a bit ICly, it sounds like Demona's involvement just wasn't added to the plot posts, so no one OOCly knew about it and therefore, figured there was nothing IC to find.

I think a simple addition like that would help Demona and potential other villains be involved in the plots that run in the future.

That is exactly my point. Because it was meant to be a thing, but the mods never mentioned it or incited character to pursue it. I couldn't simply grab my characters and say "i found madness guys" without mods making a note saying that YES there were points of mandness going through the city.

Which pretty much shows how dependent the villains are of the mods in order to keep their plotting going.

I'm going to have to butt in on this one to note that while it is difficult to constantly have to ask permission on what's good and what isn't with the mods, it also isn't entirely their responsibility to make other players aware of what you're doing with your character.

You have the same responsibility to plot with your fellow players as you do to plot with the mods, not just expect the mods to be able to drop volunteers into your lap for whatever you want Demona to get up to. If she isn't mentioned in the plotting post, make a thread for it- draw attention to the things you want other players to participate in. Like Youko said, no one knew OOCly that Demona was the reason for any of the madness going around, so there was nothing to be done ICly. And while the mods didn't let anyone know, they might have assumed that it being your character that was involved, that you might want to handle the plotting for anything dealing with her yourself.

Tl;dr- you do have to defer to the mods on some things, but on others, you have to pick up the slack and bring attention to them yourself.

I would actually like to see the mods involve the PC Villains more and put up some more 'official' references to them so those players don't have to go chase everyone down individually to let them know about something that should be affecting people game-wide it's just not efficient. I'm also biased in that I'd rather play against PC's rather than use NPC's all the time.

Perhaps there can be a PC villain plot manager who can keep tabs on stuff that's going on behind the scenes with all the bad guys and have that person work in tandem with the mods on plots?

Oh, that's an idea. Having a Mod or someone designated to coordinate with PC Villains who want to work with the Witches in order to make them part of the plots- big or small- might be something to consider. It would give players someone to go to in order to hash things like this out- hopefully with less wait time than having to wait for confirmation from the entire mod team, perhaps?

If I had a thumbs up icon I'd use it here.

thaaaat would be awesome, actually! and a lot easier to get the bad guys involved somehow. I know not everyone is like me and willing to throw their villain out there to be lynched, but some would like to still participate in a way or another c:

aha you said it better than I did in a way! hahaha

because the random Madness spree would supposedly affect people game-wide indeed. Which is also a reason why I hoped the mods would handle it and make notice of it - after all, players read what says in a mod post, but can easily miss player's comments/plots. If a plot is to affect most/all characters, it shouldn't be just one player bringing it up.

Edited (wow english how does it work) 2013-04-03 21:08 (UTC)

=)

Exactly, it's always more official in a mod post rather than an afterthought hidden in the comments below.

I am not complaining there was nothing being done ICly; how could there be anything to be done ICly when there was not one mod warning about it - that's exactly my point here.

This was plotted and agreed with the mods. Madness is Witch related and thus, it's mod related. Witch related stuff has to be run by the mods, agreed upon and they are the ones to make it roll because Witches are the big enemies here and what makes the big picture roll - so much it's even written in the FAQ that our characters cannot join the Witches' side.

Other than that, I did hope they would eventually mention as the plot kept going. Either a NPC post, either a ooc-post, or like it was actually agreed at first, on Death City Times during the day changes posts. Should I have reminded them? Yes, I should. But like I said in my first post, I personally feel like the plots created don't wish incorporate player-base so much, and prefer the players to go along with them instead. I have always felt this, it's not it's just because this plot or it's because it's this mod team.

No, I understand what you meant- but my point was, when you didn't see it brought up by the mods, you could have brought it up yourself. Whether anything would have come from it or not, it never hurts to take a little initiative, right?

I do see what you mean about the plots not incorporating the player-base much, though. And I agree to a point- but again that's probably also up to players to maybe bring their interest in things like that to the mods. Especially players of villain characters, which I assume is what you mean re: plots, since the biggest plots are usually witch attacks/anti-shibusen issues. Like Nanami-mun mentioned, perhaps there would be some interest in someone being a villain-mod liaison or something? Considering you play one of the more proactive villain types, you might be suited for the position if the mods agree with it.

That is true, I admit to it.

I have tried to organize a "villain brain-storm" before, but it's always a bit difficult since I'm still only a player and I don't have access to future big plots the mods are planning.

But like I said above, I do love that idea and I think it'd really help.

Maybe you and the mods can discuss a "List of villains" page that they can link to? This way, the villains have a place to go to share ideas before suggesting them to the mods for future plotting?

Because, I'll be honest, I had no clue about the spots of madness popping up, because I would have loved to have had Sheena affected by that--since she had reacted so badly during her initial exposure and HAS to face that fear.

Okay, first, let me take a moment to repeat what Picaro said in the edit: we're sorry that it has taken so long for your plot to get anywhere. With the amount of work you've put into this we all feel like it deserves to get somewhere and hopefully we can work towards making it easier for you to forward your plot in the future.

Also, thank you. For your continued patience, for putting so much effort into this and for being honest with us.

Now, with that out of the way!

We're still discussing the possibility of a Villain Liaison and we do have a mod interested in acting in that role! The drawbacks we can think of for that is the possibility of miscommunication or that the fact that you have to get to one mod who will then need to convene with us might make the process longer. So we're still a little undecided on this point for now.

What we do want to do is try to give ways for villains to be able to avoid capture at least temporarily.

Some of the ideas we've come up with (and note, that we're still just tossing ideas around right now, so nothing is set in stone):

- the possibility of villainous activities during the chaos of an event/attack on the city or even during missions if they can ditch their partners.

- perhaps create places/organizations that will harbour villains. World's End is one right now, but, as the person who runs it, I doubt that it could harbour any and every villain ever. (There isn't that much space in the basement.) But yes, creating hidey-holes could become a possibility.

- players of villains will need to be aware that, depending on the severity of the crime, it's possible that it will be endgame for the villain when they're caught. ICA=ICC and all that. However, the possibility of temporary wins exists! Their plan can succeed and then there would be a struggle to defeat them! Even in a series, when a villain and a hero fight, it goes back and forth a lot before the hero wins in the end! While at that point it will be over for the villain, before we reach that point there can be temporary victories happening on both sides!

Feel free to discuss this with us! This is a pretty hard to deal with issue simply because of how the game is so we'd be happy to hear some more of your thoughts and suggestions!

Thank you for your reply!

I'm sorry too, like I have said above, I should have contacted you right from the start when I realized Demona's part was overlooked. And I admit I was a bit frustrated as well, and decided to enjoy the plot instead and forget about her because I hate sounding like I'm demanding you to pay attention to me.

I understand that having a mediator mod to handle the villains could make the process longer, but at least it would make things more organized and everyone would be able to be updated regarding villain plots. I also think such a mod would be great to specifically introduce villains into future game-wide plots, be it to give them important roles or just something smaller - someone who would remind other mods "oh by the way, we have this crazy dude here, maybe they could fit this upcoming plot somehow".

The possibility of villainous activities during the chaos is exactly what I want. I think those are great ways to introduce that something is up and other characters in game may get on to it, trying to find out and that would lead to even more plots. It's interesting, I think. And besides, attacks/events is the perfect for villains to make it even worse 8D

As for hiding holes, I would suggest something outside the city. Because the city has so many cameras and each new attack or event, they increase and security does too. However, after the madness emitters have been taken down, characters begun to be allowed to travel around, right? So a hiding place for villains would be the best outside the city.
Demona was allowed to find an abandoned Witch factory. Something like an abandoned warehouse or a destroyed village in the middle of the desert.

I think the 3rd point is the biggest problem with most villains. Players don't want to let go of their character and lock them up because that would make them inactive. It's necessary to remember the players that they can still do things while their villains aren't found by the authorities, and they can make this game more interesting even - who doesn't like to be involved with game-wide plots?
Personally, I'm planning for Demona to be arrest (yes, I already have a draft). I WANT Demona arrested, because this whole thing is meant to end exactly with that. However, I don't want Demona to be arrested at the most minimal thing either - I want her to actually stir things up bad before that happens; I want characters in game to realize something really wrong is going on, and only then finding the culprit. Like you said, temporary victories and losses, until finally Demona isn't able to hide anymore. To remember villain-players of this would also be a great way to reassure them they can have fun, involvement and cr even when playing assholes.

My other advise would also to change the FAQ regarding the impossibility to join the Witches (here http://soul-mods.dreamwidth.org/7690.html ). Because people may take it like "your character will never be allowed to reach a witch and offer their services", which is not true since that's exactly what Demona did. She technically did join the Witches' side - she just doesn't live where they are and still lives in Death City. The FAQ doesn't seem to be all that "villain-friendly" so to speak and may also be a reason for people to fear their villain wouldn't fit the game.

From what it sounds like when we were talking, Ami did try to drop some hints about it to some people...but then they dropped.

You have a point with the villain mod, though. At the very least, if nothing else, the villain mod lets player of villain characters know there is someone they can go to for things like these.

We hadn't thought about hiding places outside of the city. It's a pretty good idea! We'll need to discuss it as a whole group first before I get back to you on it, but I think it's probably workable.

I think as long as we're able to keep a channel of communication open with the players of villain characters, I think a lot of these problems could definitely be solved.

The problem with your last point though, is that technically they still aren't allowed to join the witches. Not because we don't want villains but because it would be a nightmare logistically. For the same reason we can't just put a villain in jail without considering that it would make them hard to play, we can't just let a character run off and join the witches because then who would they interact with?

I do agree though, looking at it that maybe there is a better way to word the answer to that particular question. Probably taking the points we've been talking about and putting it there.

Either way, we will probably be furiously debating the points you just brought up so if the reply comes late after this that's why. In the mean time, feel free to continue giving us your thoughts: we're definitely listening.

I hate to be the one to bring this up, but I think the mods need to reconsider the appability of characters in regards to Homestuck- more to the point, when it comes to Ancestors.

Considering I myself have played an Ancestor here myself, this probably sounds hypocritical as hell. However I honestly feel like a lot of the Ancestors aside from HIC, Mindfang and the Handmaid don't really have enough canon to be applied for. I don't have anything against our current players or anything- I love our cast- but given the fact that most of the ancestors are, at most, passing mentions from other ancestors, it leaves a little too much room for interpretation when it comes to personalities. Granted, most ancestor players tend to work from the same base assumptions, but the thing is, they're just that- assumptions. I play in another game that allows Ancestors, but as AUs, just in case Homestuck does what it does best and comes around to joss people's headcanons later on.

I know a few other games gave a minimum of appearances/canon that's needed before a Homestuck character is appable, and perhaps that's something that's needed here? I dunno, I'm probably the only one who sees an issue with it, but that's just my two cents on the matter.

Just dropping in really quick to say that it is HELLA weird to see that account posting with no quirk.

Also yeah, agreeing. I am crazy worried about apping Mituna this round, but I've worked with almost no canon background before. It can be done, but the personality and voice have to be held at a much higher standard during app judging.

It was really hard not to fish-pun during all that, you have no idea.

Also it's not so much that it can't be done as that with some characters in Homestuck, it's likely best to wait it out a bit and see what Hussie gets up to with them in the meantime- which is why I waited so long to app Meenah. But there's also the chance that he won't do anything else with them, and that's also a chance you take.

But with other characters- most of the ancestors, guardians, etc- a lot is inference from what other characters say about them rather than what we've seen of them. Because Hussie can and WILL introduce characters solely for the purpose of letting you know how horribly they died. That's not to say it's impossible of course, but that it should be done carefully- and I think at this point SC could really use more of the trolls we DO have information on the personalities/quirks/etcetera on than those we don't- especially considering that at the moment, we're at four ancestors to one post-scratch troll and two pre-scratch players.

I'm obviously biased in favor of letting ancestors in. XD But! Even given Hussie, I don't feel like there's a huge chance we're going to get much more info about the ancestors who are dead; it seems like their side story is wrapped up and done.

I do agree that it would be awesome to have more post-scratch trolls, but on the other hand, I don't think limiting appable characters would necessarily make people app someone else instead of the ones who were disallowed. Like, I don't personally have a fallback HS muse if for whatever reason a game I wanted to app Psii to didn't allow him/already had one. I'd end up just not apping there at all. If what we want is more post-scratch people, I think we should look at ATP for them specifically, or do something else to find and enable them, not cut out other characters.

I'm not saying they should be disallowed entirely- because that would probably mean getting rid of the ones we already have. But maybe putting a hold on them until we at least get in some of the more- and I hate to say it like this but- important and currently relevant trolls? Or at the very least, more trolls that the younger trolls have more reason to interact with- because honestly, at this junction it doesn't feel so much like a cast as much as a bunch of people who happen to play characters from the same setting/universe.

And the thing is, we shouldn't have to put them up on ATP. Post-scratch trolls specifically- they're the main branch of the troll timeline. I've never been in a game where at least the core component of trolls wasn't full before people started shooting for ancestors/dancestors. In fact, that's usually the main reason people pick up ancestors- because the troll of their choice is already taken at the game they want to join, not the other way around.

Edited 2013-04-04 03:38 (UTC)

I get what you mean, and I do agree! :D

I think it's kind of odd that we ended up with this mix, and I know I'm kind of odd in that my first choice for someone to play is an ancestor. :D I actually think once people see that we have so many slots open for the main trolls, they'll fill up again organically. I hope so, anyway.

OTOH, I would hate to discourage the current ancestor reserves from apping, but on the other other hand, I do completely understand your concern.

Put it this way. I play an ancestor and I'm concerned. I think you're mislead in your belief that seeing the main body of trolls open will cause people to app. The main twelve have had holes for months and yet... Well there are still holes, as you can see.

I'm kind of siding with Nayru on this one. We shouldn't have to put the twelve main trolls up on ATP or anything like that. Perhaps instead of enabling people to play Pre Scratch or Ancestors we should be enabling the main body of trolls instead.

SC is being gracious by allowing people to app ancestors in at all, since a great deal of games reject the notion of ever allowing them ( at least until the series is done ). The thing is, a lot of ancestors and pre scratch trolls do not have enough meat to the bones. In fact, I would argue we do not know enough about the pre scratch trolls at all to allow any outside of Meenah and Aranea to be apped. It's too risky at the moment because it's obvious that Hussie has something up his sleeve.

In the end, I believe there should be harsher criteria and firmer lines drawn in the sand on which should be apped and which should not.

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/sneaks in

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