soul_ooc | MODPOST 1/2

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*mod post

MODPOST 1/2

Attention, Soul Campaign!

We’re opening reservations in a little over a week, and the mods would like to make some announcements regarding changes being made to the application and reservation process. These changes have been in planning for a long time, and is one of the reasons why we went for the break.

Reserves Page and Application Cut Off
The reserves page will open on November 1, 2011 as planned. The application cycle will be from December 16 - 23, 2011. Cut-off for next cycle will be December 15, 2011, 11:59pm EST.

Changes to the application form
We made some changes to the application form, which you can see here. The sections remain the same, but the text explaining these changes have been revised to make them clearer and more streamlined. We’ve included a secondary reference page linked in the application, which includes guidelines that will hopefully make the application easier for players to fill and the application cycle/process much faster than what we’ve been doing before.

We changed the weapon section so that weapons will only have one general ability. There will be a separate post to detail how this will affect current weapons (but don’t panic, we’re not going to make you change yours if you don’t want to).

Last, a summary of the events in the game since its beginning up til the Europe event has been posted in this page.

New revision process for the applications
Starting the next cycle, we will no longer entertain revisions for the Character Information section of the application. This section includes the character’s history, personality, abilities, and weaknesses. We feel that players who know their characters well should be able to write their applications in a manner that makes this section understandable to the application team. Any application whose character information section the application team finds lacking will immediately be rejected.

The other sections (SC-only section, meister, weapon, soul description, samples) will go through the usual revision process if necessary, since they are all sections unique to Soul Campaign.

Beta-reading system
However, since we will no longer be allowing revisions for the character information during the application cycle, we will be offsetting this with a beta-reading system to help players make sure that their applications pass the standards of the game.

How will this work? In the reserves page, the applicants commenting on it will have the option of asking for a beta-reader from SC’s pool of current players. You can volunteer to beta-read theirs and help them with their applications by replying to their reserve comment.

We’d also like to minimize the risk of applicants asking for a beta-reader and not getting any -- to do this, the mods will be collecting names of people willing to be included in a pool of beta-readers every cycle, and we will assign them to a lonely applicant.

If you’d like to volunteer, please reply here, and indicate any preferences (or non-preferences, for that matter!) on series or canon that you have. We appreciate it! App team members may also volunteer, but this doesn’t guarantee that the app will pass.

Test drive meme
We will also test something for next cycle. We will put up a Test Drive Meme in Soul Skirmish, to be linked to the reserves page. This will give the prospective applicants and the current players space to tag each other before the application cycle, to give the applicants a taste of the game before they come in.

The meme will include several scenarios that the characters can play out, depending on their choice. Some will be serious, while some will be more light-hearted. Soul Campaign is a plot-heavy game that depends on consistent relations and interactions between characters, as well as emphasis on world news and events; we’d like the applicants to be more aware of this as they app into the game.

Please note that threads in this meme will not be accepted for Activity Check. Sorry. :c

Whew!
So that’s it for changes! Please note that the new revision process, beta-reading system, and test drive meme are all still under testing for now, and we may adjust them depending on how December pans out. We appreciate your patience!

The second mod post will be up soon after this, so make sure to check it out, especially if you have weapon characters.

For questions about this post (and its links), you can ask here or email us at soulcampaign@gmail.com. (Don't worry if some questions take a while to answer, a couple of the mods are going on a short vacation for a couple of days. Thank you for your patience!)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Personally, I'm of the opinion that putting in more quality checks is never a bad thing, and that beta readers really WILL allow everybody to participate while dividing the work more efficiently in the long run. Sure, it may not always be perfect on the get-go, but it's not like we can't fix it later on. Furthermore, I'd also like to believe that if a player really wanted to come in and join us, they'll make the effort to, no matter how "intimidating" it looks. On the end of the beta readers, it gives you all an opportunity to check the apps of future castmates/players out, help them along and get to know them better as well. I really can't see how this could be a problem just yet.

Anyway, long and short of it is that I'm in full support of whatever helps you guys and the app team get things going with minimal stress. I think I've seen just a part of how hard it is on the mods and app team and even the people waiting on their revisions/acceptance notice and such during the application season, and if doing this helps everyone while keeping the quality of the game as is (maybe even improving on it), then I'm good.

Seconding all this, pretty much. At lot of people app every round, but I feel like there's always a good amount that get in, tag a little and then just idle out. Maybe the whole lack of revisions thing might seem a little intimidating, but I don't think that should stop anyone who really wants to play here. If someone doesn't app because they thought the app was too scary, then it doesn't make me think they wanted to be here all that badly, and if those people end up not apping then at least it means there's less work and stress on the mods, and less wait for others who really do want to play, rather than more work and wait only to have the less serious appers dropping out right away anyway.

Hopefully the test-drive meme will help that out too. Maybe letting people have a go at playing characters in this setting will eliminate some of that "yeah i tried but it didn't really work out, sorry" that we get after every app round.

I'm pretty sure there's no connection between strength of/determination to app and how soon someone idles out. Not everyone wants to be somewhere "very badly" when they app. Many are just "Hey, I heard this game was cool, I want in!"

Tagging in and then idling out often is from people realizing the game either isn't what they though it was, or they didn't have the success they wanted to getting established. Or RL just started kicking them in the teeth or whatever.

This thought that it doesn't matter how hard an app is really comes off as: "If you REALLY want into our super special club house, pass this hazing!" which is honestly not the way to attract new players. There needs to be a balance between setting a high bar, but making it worth the effort and players won't know if we're worth the effort until they get in.

Apps should be about judging the quality of someone's writing/character knowlage, not a test of determination or strength of will.

Except hazing would imply anyone was doing something outright cruel. A hard application is hardly "hazing". I find a better metaphor would be a college application. No one decides against applying to a college they really want to go to just because the application is hard. Even if they're not sure they'll get in, most at least try. No one is saying that SC is some super elite thing that you have to jump through all these hoops to get in, and phrasing it like that is more likely to scare off potential appers then the app itself. It's difficult, but worth it. If you want to go there, why should it matter if the application is a little intimidating?

But either way, it's not as if the new rules for apps are making it any more difficult to get in. The mods are just going to judge applications as a whole now rather than worry about little details that need revision when the app is otherwise good. It means that apps will get accepted without days of emailing back and forward, and only rejected if there are obvious, glaring flaws. This method is only going to streamline and quicken the process, and honestly it's kind of depressing that everyone is acting like this whole "no revisions" thing is so horrible and terrifying that they apparently aren't even seeing the reasons for it.

Hence the "comes off as." Not judging intent, but appearances. The newbie apping will NOT know that the apps aren't any harder. They will just see "NO REVISIONS" sign. Game apps are always a game of guessing what the app team wants and that note is telling them they HAVE to guess right. Seeing the anxiety that apps cause, that could very well be a deal breaker for someone who may have well gotten in easily.

And college is one thing. A game for recreation and a hobby is quite another.

And if the current players here, who have access to this conversation and explanation cannot see the reasons, how on Earth will a potential applicant?

There isn't a giant, scary, flashing "NO REVISIONS" sign, however. There is a note in the middle of the section explanation saying that they won't accept revisions on that section. It only seems like such a big deal because everyone here is making it a big deal about it.

Either way, if you want something then you should be willing to do at least a little for it, whether it's for school or just for fun. A little more care in writing an app, with the opportunity to have that app beta-tested, means that the mods have a much easier workload and everyone gets in quicker. It's not that big a deal, and it is meant to help applicants.

Really, the only reason people here apparently need the reasons explained to them is because it's a new thing and they want to know why. A new apper will most likely just see the rules and accept them, and if they actually pay that much attention to the "no revisions" note to think it's so harsh that they don't want to apply at all, then they don't have to.

Which is functionally the same thing.

No revisions, when revisions are a very common part of an app process, reads as only getting one shot to do something perfect. One shot every, what is it, 3 months or so, to guess from very few examples, how this mod team wants you to do the personality section of your app. It IS a big deal to anyone who will or would be apping. I have already heard quite a number of people say that they will no longer consider this game as a game to app in because of this policy, or that they are no longer considering apping a second character.

This is not a matter of "just put more care into it" It's a matter of having to guess just how exactly a group of people you don't know will expect you to write a character section. Even if it's meant to help applicants, it does not at all see that way.

I have no problem with beta-testing. I think the beta testing is a wonderful idea as long as the betas have proper guidelines so that when a beta says it's good, the mods will think the same.

A policy that chases away potential players is not a good policy. A policy that discourages current players from apping another character is not a good policy.

They are writing an application guide, you know. This is something that has been planned from the start, and probably would have eliminated like half of the complaints if people had just relaxed and waited a bit.

No one is going to be expected to guess at what the mods want. The mods are going to do everything they can to make help out applicants. This is only being announced before anything else because it gives applicants more time to take it into consideration while writing apps, because they didn't want to drop it on everyone when there wasn't much time left to do anything about it.

Rather than everyone worrying on and on about all this, if everyone would just chill for a bit all your concerns will be addressed.

Edited 2011-10-26 12:40 (UTC)

I can flat out tell you that asking for a quality application and solid character knowledge is not hazing. Hazing is an activity that makes a potential applicant feel threatened, endangered, or pressured into doing something they do not want to do. Asking someone to meet a certain standard of quality is not hazing by any standards. Hazing is making someone eat their own vomit, eat cat food, swim across a lake while drunk, imbibe large amounts of alcohol, or any number of other things that are illegal.

Hazing is not asking someone to write a decent application for an online game, and it's not a word anyone should be throwing around casually.

I never said it was.

What I said was: "This thought that it doesn't matter how hard an app is really comes off as: "If you REALLY want into our super special club house, pass this hazing!" "

To say "Well if they REALLY wanted to get in, they would do it" is not far removed from real life hazing. That is the backbone of hazing. If you REALLY want to get in, you will suffer this. THAT is what I am comparing to hazing. Not the app process itself.

Okay, I'm sorry. I wasn't going to reply again. But even the use of the term hazing for something like an online application is not acceptable.

I have personally had to attend candlelight memorials for the victims of real hazing. I've had to write the condolence cards to chapters in Greek communities who have lost members to hazing. I was, in fact, hazed by an organization that I ended up declining to join because of said hazing before finding my place in a sorority that outlaws any and all hazing activities.

There is no comparison to be drawn between the application process for an online game and activities that cause deaths and serious injuries every year. I find it extremely offensive that you would even draw a line between the two, because it not only attempts to minimize the severity of real hazing, but makes this entire thing way more serious and dramatic than it needs to be.

If you haven't has personal experience with hazing, I can understand why you might think the two are even remotely similar, but please stop trying to put these two situations in the same context. It's extremely offensive and hurtful to me, personally and as a member of a national community that is stereotyped as participating in hazing activities.

And again. I NEVER SAID THE APP WAS HAZING.

Kindly read what I wrote.

Please do not treat me like an idiot. You said 'pass this hazing' implying that the application process is hazing. You said that it was a hazing mentality. Either way, it doesn't matter, because it's offensive to me. Please have some consideration, and don't just brush me off because you think using the term is okay if you're just using it to describe a state of mind instead of an action.

http://soul-ooc.livejournal.com/823052.html?thread=24815116#t24815116

If apps are about judging the quality of someone's writing and character knowledge, then there is no more problem. That's exactly what will be happening.

And hazing. Really? Hazing. Might as well call that molehill a mountain while we're at it.

The mindset of "It doesn't matter how daunting/intimidating the app is, if someone REALLY wants to get in, they will do whatever we ask" is exactly what allows for hazing to happen. That mindset does not care at all about quality, it is saying that it's a person's determination to get in the game that matters. That is what the comment I was replying to was implying, whether it was intended or not.

Actually, in context, it isn't even close to "they will do whatever we ask." I'll admit that, yes, Soul Campaign and nearly every other roleplaying game out there are members-only establishments. In our case, to become a member, you must fill out an application form that will be judged by a panel of current members. Just like in all of these groups, you either pass the application, fail the application, or are deferred for any number of reasons. There is no part of the process that strays away from the basic idea of 'submit an application.'

I do understand what you are trying to say, but at the same time, the context of the situation still makes the comparison a sensational one. This is a process that is very much about quality... once you decide to go through the process. Before you submit that app, whether you feel scared or intimidated or determined or absolutely calm is entirely up to you and does not affect the requirements nor the process. Calm, scared, or determined, nothing will happen until you write that app and give it in.

So, again, where is the hazing?

"Furthermore, I'd also like to believe that if a player really wanted to come in and join us, they'll make the effort to, no matter how "intimidating" it looks. "

" Maybe the whole lack of revisions thing might seem a little intimidating, but I don't think that should stop anyone who really wants to play here. "

Quotes like these [will all respect and apologies to the original writers as I am not attempting to single them out] give off the impression that it is the determination of the applicant to REALLY want to join THIS game over all others that is what's important, not the content of your app, which is what my reply was commenting on. When there is a very long period between apps, the fact that any small misunderstanding in a personality section means that you could be rejected without any chance to clarify or explain makes it into a test of determination.

While I understand that yes, the word hazing is a strong one, please also note that no where did I say hazing was what was happening or intended. If I had realized people were going to get hung up on the word, I would not have used it, but I really couldn't think of any other term off hand for the belief that people who want to get into a club should do anything, no matter how intimidating or scary, to get in. Hazing is something that to those who support it is seen as a test of determination. In that mindset, it's a gauntlet you run through to prove that you are good enough and driven enough to withstand anything to get into that group. Swap it for "initiation" instead if that works better. I can't edit it to clarify that at this stage because replies have been made.

the fact that any small misunderstanding in a personality section means that you could be rejected without any chance to clarify or explain makes it into a test of determination

Again, please don't assume that the app team and the mods are out to reject apps or are out to look for something wrong in them. In fact, we have about a 95% acceptance rate for all of our applications, so we were more than lenient with previous apps. What the new process does is to streamline acceptances for the benefit of both the player and the app team, and to lessen the frequency of minor revisions in this section. It makes the process less painful on this section, which all players are expected to know about their characters.

It's a matter of having to guess just how exactly a group of people you don't know will expect you to write a character section.

The post already mentions that samples are forthcoming. However, it's not too much of a leap to assume that more plot-heavy games expect the same things from their appers' personality sections -- motivations, focus, strengths, weaknesses and quirks -- these are all standard across the board. We're not asking for a nobel prize essay on your character -- we just want to know that you know the character well enough to play them in a plot-heavy setting. Again, as Kelly has said, the app isn't any harder; it might even be easier if we look at the anticipated decrease in app team clarifications and minor revisions (which is what 90% of them are).

I'm really glad to see that acceptance is so high! But there's really no way for people looking at the app to know what unless you tell them. The app may not BE harder, but it looks it and sounds it. There really needs to be these assurances somewhere attached to the app itself.

How does the app form look harder, exactly? Is it only because of the no revisions clause? We'd appreciate it if you could elaborate on this, because part of the change was to make the app form less redundant, have less tl;dr instructions, and to have less rules imposed on it.

The no revisions clause is all of it, to be honest. Revisions are always part of apping and allow for small mistakes to be corrected and misunderstands to be worked out. Seeing that there is no chance to fix those mistakes, especially with the long window before you can app again is a huge deterrence and adds an addition level of anxiety and stress to the process. Even if you say here that small things will be over looked, in most app processes they aren't. Unless the person looking at that app has the assurance that the usual and frequent revision calls won't cause them to be rejected, they're going to assume it's business as usual, just with no chance to tailor what they've written to expectations they weren't aware of because there's always something that gets missed or misunderstood.

And personally, I'd rather have the longer instructions as a general thing. I'm hoping the guidelines you guys are putting together will replace them because it can be very hard sometimes to figure out how sections are to be filled out, like how the strengths and weakness sections always are very hard since half the time they're redundant and tend to be just lists (thank you for making that optional, BTW. BIG improvement!) This goes double for the no 2nd chance addition.

(no subject)

soul_mods - 2011-10-26 15:56 (UTC) - Expand

But there is no initiation, either, only application. Those two concepts are worlds apart. Initiation requires, as you say, a test of courage or determination or something. An application requires only two things: that you fill out the application and that you submit it on time. That's what this is--an application. You can't play unless you give it in, much like how you can't chew the food on your plate until you put it in your mouth. It's process. I can see the point you are trying to make, and I do understand, but the connection just isn't there to be made. Determined or not, your application is looked at the same as all the other applications. That's what I want to make clear--even if other people have their opinions on the matter, that doesn't change that this is very simply an application like any other.

I guess I'm just not doing a good job explaining what I mean. I'm not saying the app is that. I'm saying the belief that is being batted around that if these changes will keep someone from apping it means they just didn't want it hard enough. The implication that only people who REALLY want to be in this game and JUST this game and who aren't going to be put off by now matter how anything on the application looks are the only ones that are wanted. That implication that the app looking harder and harder is a good thing because of that and that only people who REALLY wanted to be here are the ones who stay and people who would look at that barrier and say it wasn't worth the stress wouldn't have been good players anyway and that those are the people who idle out so it's good that they should be chased away before they even have a chance to be part of the game.

That's what I'm frustrated at. Really sorry I keep being confusing about it.

No, it's okay. Communication is one of those very human things to get cross-wired about.

I agree with you--the logic behind the idea that a scary application will only attract people who will end up staying once the process is completed is flawed. I don't believe it will deter or promote committed players either way, as there are too many factors involved to really predict what creates a player that eventually ends up staying in SC. You are correct in finding issue with that faulty assumption.