soul_ooc | MODPOST 1/2

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*mod post

MODPOST 1/2

Attention, Soul Campaign!

We’re opening reservations in a little over a week, and the mods would like to make some announcements regarding changes being made to the application and reservation process. These changes have been in planning for a long time, and is one of the reasons why we went for the break.

Reserves Page and Application Cut Off
The reserves page will open on November 1, 2011 as planned. The application cycle will be from December 16 - 23, 2011. Cut-off for next cycle will be December 15, 2011, 11:59pm EST.

Changes to the application form
We made some changes to the application form, which you can see here. The sections remain the same, but the text explaining these changes have been revised to make them clearer and more streamlined. We’ve included a secondary reference page linked in the application, which includes guidelines that will hopefully make the application easier for players to fill and the application cycle/process much faster than what we’ve been doing before.

We changed the weapon section so that weapons will only have one general ability. There will be a separate post to detail how this will affect current weapons (but don’t panic, we’re not going to make you change yours if you don’t want to).

Last, a summary of the events in the game since its beginning up til the Europe event has been posted in this page.

New revision process for the applications
Starting the next cycle, we will no longer entertain revisions for the Character Information section of the application. This section includes the character’s history, personality, abilities, and weaknesses. We feel that players who know their characters well should be able to write their applications in a manner that makes this section understandable to the application team. Any application whose character information section the application team finds lacking will immediately be rejected.

The other sections (SC-only section, meister, weapon, soul description, samples) will go through the usual revision process if necessary, since they are all sections unique to Soul Campaign.

Beta-reading system
However, since we will no longer be allowing revisions for the character information during the application cycle, we will be offsetting this with a beta-reading system to help players make sure that their applications pass the standards of the game.

How will this work? In the reserves page, the applicants commenting on it will have the option of asking for a beta-reader from SC’s pool of current players. You can volunteer to beta-read theirs and help them with their applications by replying to their reserve comment.

We’d also like to minimize the risk of applicants asking for a beta-reader and not getting any -- to do this, the mods will be collecting names of people willing to be included in a pool of beta-readers every cycle, and we will assign them to a lonely applicant.

If you’d like to volunteer, please reply here, and indicate any preferences (or non-preferences, for that matter!) on series or canon that you have. We appreciate it! App team members may also volunteer, but this doesn’t guarantee that the app will pass.

Test drive meme
We will also test something for next cycle. We will put up a Test Drive Meme in Soul Skirmish, to be linked to the reserves page. This will give the prospective applicants and the current players space to tag each other before the application cycle, to give the applicants a taste of the game before they come in.

The meme will include several scenarios that the characters can play out, depending on their choice. Some will be serious, while some will be more light-hearted. Soul Campaign is a plot-heavy game that depends on consistent relations and interactions between characters, as well as emphasis on world news and events; we’d like the applicants to be more aware of this as they app into the game.

Please note that threads in this meme will not be accepted for Activity Check. Sorry. :c

Whew!
So that’s it for changes! Please note that the new revision process, beta-reading system, and test drive meme are all still under testing for now, and we may adjust them depending on how December pans out. We appreciate your patience!

The second mod post will be up soon after this, so make sure to check it out, especially if you have weapon characters.

For questions about this post (and its links), you can ask here or email us at soulcampaign@gmail.com. (Don't worry if some questions take a while to answer, a couple of the mods are going on a short vacation for a couple of days. Thank you for your patience!)

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First off, I love the idea with the meme! I don’t really get what you want to do with the weapon and only one skill rule (maybe I will after reading it three times more?_?), but what seems really awkward to me are the changes regarding the apps and betas.

My questions would be the following:
+ Will there be a way to help the betas judge? Everybody has a different idea of what makes an app good so something like a training or shared guidelines or even just a list to check off against would be a huge help.
+ What if a beta doesn’t get back to somebody for one reason or another? Will there be a deadline for beta-ing or until you can request another?
+ What about people who end up deciding to app at the last minute and have no time left to request a beta anymore? Will they have to just hope on their luck and that everything will be alright with their app at first try?

I'm asking because I beta-read for a lot of people and also always had others beta for my apps in SC but a good part of those apps still ended up getting revisions anyway. I'm thinking about volunteering, but considering that there will be no revision requests anymore means that a lot of indirect responsibility will go to those volunteering as betas. Personally, I’d feel bad if I told somebody their app is okay just to have it end up being rejected. Another reason I’m bringing up those points is because I once tried to app at CFUD who uses a similar beta system and then got entirely put off of ever wanting to app there again simply by how badly my experience with the beta system was. I think the beta system you want to do could work, but you will really want to make it sound as appealing as possible and to make sure that it really is a help to new and old appers alike rather than another hurdle that they feel they need to take.

Some more questions about the changes in the app guideline:
+ Does this mean that any weapon except gun-types can do partial transformations now?
+ I’m also curious about what you said about Weapons being unable to defeat kishin eggs alone in the Weapon Guidelines. While I know that you want to empathize the importance of working together as Meister and Weapons since it’s an important mechanic in the game, I do wonder – what about Weapons that would want to do like Justin and Giriko and work on their own? Is that still possible, at least to a degree?
+ Not a question, but neither I nor the friends I gave it to read could make head or tails out of the weapon ability part of the first example (demon glasses) here (http://soul-mods.livejournal.com/34046.html). We get that it’s about energy and manipulating something and that it’s about elements but what it is? The best guess we could come up with so far is “I thiiink means like ENERGY LASERS CARE BEAR STARE whatever”. I’m not sure if that makes it really good as a example, as beautifully phrased as it is.^^;
+ Will there be a guideline for Meisters as well? Skimming through the new app form and guidelines there is a lot of additional information about Weapons but practically no mention about Meisters.
+ Will you give examples of do’s and don’ts for the personality section of the app? Right now it reads a bit like “this is the most important part, you can’t correct it, read our mind”, exaggeratedly said. Players already in the game will know what you mean, but as it is it has a good potential to scare away new players.

Edited 2011-10-23 01:23 (UTC)

Well, that first sample would be my bad! But yes, the part past catalysis is just explanations about how it works in-game for whoever's using him to show about how much can they expect to do so that rules out things like "OKAY I'M A ONE STAR MEISTER LET'S BLOW UP THINGS".

Oh, I wouldn’t call it your bad as long as you and the mods who approved it get what is meant, but as a sample it is… Too well-phrased? You have a wonderful way with words and it might be because English is my second language, but even though I checked out Jade’s Weapon abilities before and thus should know what is being said but I still don’t get it. As far as I can understand the part shown as a sample covers the HOW it works but I keep missing the details that explain WHAT the ability/attack that is being spoken of actually is besides vague terms of manipulating energy that is taken from the environment.
My best guess so far is still that it has to be some kind of Captain Planet Soul Menace, I'm very sorry about that. ^^;

Under normal circumstances I wouldn’t think twice about it and just shrug it off as me failing to translate something in a coherent way and ask you personally should the need for knowing it arise, so this is nothing personal, it really isn’t. I enjoy interacting with you both on an IC and OOC level and I feel bad if it comes off as me trying to call you out because I really don’t. What I want to try to do is to give feedback to the changes and new app form.

My point still stands, though, examples are meant to be understood easily by everybody and – call me the idiot I might be – I don’t feel that the first example does fulfill that requirement. :(

Well, if you do want the truth...the actual mechanics of how it works is actually that complicated in the canon itself. The most I can translate it to in understandable standards would be traditional magic, but magic is a) The sole domain of Witches in-game and b) Not what I was going for. I thought of finding someone else's sample to use for this but if I'm not mistaken, Jade may be the sole pure elemental weapon.

I may do a more proper write-up if it's needed but that will have to wait as I'm on a technical hiatus now for rather odd reasons. Apologies!

Thanks for your consideration, but I think you are still misunderstanding me a bit. My problem with it as example is not as much about the explanation of the ability being too complicated (I can understand and fully respect you for wanting to keep things close to canon!), but rather that it comes off as an expert explaining the confusing inner mechanics of a very complicated machine while forgetting to ever mention what he is actually talking about. It could be a hair-dryer, a racing car or a missile! The explanation is good, but because an important detail is missing it is still difficult to understand what is being talked about to anybody who isn’t an expert as well.

TL;Dr: What is Jade's ability in Weapon form? What can the Meister do by wearing the demon glasses? That - the most important - part is not mentioned in the example and is what I’d really love to know if I were to turn to it for help as a player wanting to app. Without this information, it is hard to tell whether it is an example for a 'normal' or an 'elemental' Weapon,too - I still wouldn’t know if you hadn't told me. If you can add a line that says that it is meant as an example for a Weapon with elemental powers (as opposed to the second example) and another one that says what his Weapon form can actually do the example would be good in my opinion!

…Of course this is only my two cents on the matter. I don't mean to blame or lecture you about how to fill a part of your app, my only concern is with its use as an example that is officially used. I think that a lot of make or break of what this new changes bring will depend on how good things are being explained and easily understood examples are core points for that. Sorry for nagging!

Thinking about it, how about a way that would prevent people from having to wait long enough to possibly lose interest? Two months are an awful lot of time just to try again, so maybe you could, idk... make a 'second try' round for those who failed at the first go after 1-4 weeks?

But the thing is, failure rates were already pretty low as is and as SC is a plot-heavy game, new arrivals would only disrupt the plot. It may be difficult to appreciate on this end, but when you look back at the storyline thus far the arrival of new people does tend to change things up and it's also part of why app cycles had to be changed to two months at a time as it's just mood-killing to go through events and welcome new people. At least, I'm saying this from the perspective of a reader.

Tl;dr Too many arrival cycles wouldn't be conducive to the game's environment and it brings nothing positive. Since this beta system is only a trial run and the applicants will be judged less, I would think the kinks can be worked out well enough so that this will be less of a concern.

That is a fair, good point. The reason I asked is that two months are more than most players are willing to wait and that somebody on anoncomm raised the same idea, so I felt confident that it's not only me who thought that it might be a good way to take the sting out of the rejection issue. It seemed like something that's worth the try to ask about, so I tried. You have good reason why it might not be that good a solution, point taken.

However, I'd like to draw your attention to a few things:

failure rates were already pretty low as is... - Disregarding the use of the past tense (“were already pretty low”, meaning with revisions of all parts allowed) this is something you as a member of the app team can know, but the rest of us can't. The apps are being emailed and judged in private; only those directly involved can know how many rejections, passes and revisions happen each round and what is evaluated by what criteria. You and the others of the app team and the mods can see behind the scenes, you know what is happening backstage each app round rolls in. What you need to consider is that me and most others can’t. We may get a few glimpses through plurks and others, but yeah, our way of seeing and appreciating things is going to be different for sure. And that won’t change unless you explain and deal with us, what is all most people commenting in the questions thread here are hoping and asking for. :(

You can speak of past rates and how applications are going to be judged less strictly now, but please understand – while you know exactly what that means all we get is vague terms that can mean pretty much anything. I don’t think we can be blamed for being unwilling to just nod and be fine with that, as much as we trust and love you guys on a personal level. What you want to do are some big changes so it’s logical for people to be concerned about it, especially if they like and care about the game enough to speak up about those points, most doing it way better than I could. Reading some comments I can’t help but feel that the main argument of the changes making things easier for everybody actually means that they will make things easier for those having to approve or reject the apps. I am really sorry for feeling this way since I still think you guys are awesome and I really love you, too, so I’m sincerely hoping that steps to clear this up will be taken soon.

…This comment ended up being more towards the mod and app team in general than to you, sorry.

This is Yukeh. Sorry if I don't change accounts, but LJ login seems to have taking a dive since I went and came back from vacation (two hours ago!). I'm speaking as part of the app team, hence the distinction.

Part of the purpose of this post is to inform the players that we are changing the way we are judging this single section in the application -- basically, the character information section. By eliminating the need for minor revisions since the app team will only have to look at content, we make the process easier on both the app team and the applicants -- the latter because it means they need to get less emails to fix this and that, less hassle, less pain, less waiting, and less being affronted by getting revision requests at all.

I'm very sorry you feel that way, too, but to be quite honest, if we only wanted things to be easier for us, we would have just implemented this system without telling anyone, ignored the idea of the beta-reader, and just passed it off as the app getting stricter. The application isn't any harder or even any stricter; it just allows us to wean out the apps that really don't pass game standards (often the incredibly last minute apps, too) while making the cycle of both passing or failing characters faster. If the apps doesn't meet the basic requirements of what shows their grasp of their character, the app will be rejected, plain and simple. We'll be releasing a guide/checklist on what makes the character information section acceptable for the app team and the mods, so we hope that helps in the future.

Thanks for the reply.

I still don't think that I can see the implementation of official betas (most of us already have one or three for our apps anyway) as a real way to help alleviate the load on the app team (the betas' can't sort out apps, only offer assistance) and predict a lot of potential issues ('picking castmates', personal grudges from or against the betas, having betas not come through for their charges or two betas giving different advise, and so on... ) with it based on my previous experiences with official betas which will have to be at least considered in time. However, I think the idea is good if you can manage to get it to work! (holding hands for worried app writers and rookies = good; having it sound as if they are meant as first filter for the stressed app team = not so good)

If I may also say so... I was more than a bit confused when the app team suddenly started to answer our questions and concerns when we thought that they were meant for the mods. It's easy to see why and how deeply they are involved but it was still strange for me to have who I considered fellow players suddenly address me with what one might call the authority of a mod without giving an explanation why. Sorry if I got rude about it, but I really didn't know what to think about that since I kept those positions clearly separated in my head. (app team: people who take care of apps, get little sleep - mods: people who run the game, do apps and a lot other of stuff, get even less sleep)

I think this is where the confusion begins. The beta readers aren't put there to help the app team make our lives easier, they are there for the pure benefit of the players. If anything, putting the new process and the beta-reader system in place might make our jobs a little harder or more fast-paced given the amount of work and coordination that we are taking on ourselves, but they are put there to make it easier on the applicants most of all -- nowhere on this post is it mentioned that the beta-reader is supposed to help the app team, so I am not sure where you got the idea. On top of the guidelines, the detail in the new app form, and the test drive meme, the beta-readers will function as another helping (and OPTIONAL) guide for the applicants to make sure their apps pass current game standards. If you think that the beta-readers may pose more problems for you as an applicant, then by all means, you can skip them.

The app team is integral in the revisions we just stated above. They know all the issues of the previous app process and are important voices in helping us, the mods, figure out what changes needed to be made and how to best divide the tasks between ourselves. I'm not quite sure where the issue is if you only wanted answers to your questions -- the answers would have been the same coming from a mod (and maybe the mod might be less coherent, if it's me...)

It was mentioned a few times in various replies that it was believed that the betas would make the mods/app teams job easier, so I think it's a common misconception, or one that was just adopted when seen because it made sense.

And I think part of the confusion of who was replying in what capacity, because I felt a bit similar, is that as a newer player, I at first had no idea that the mod and app teams were separate teams and also had [and still have!] no idea who is on the app team. So answers seemed to be coming from fellow players rather than the mods, since there's nothing to indicate who's an app-team member the way the mod account labels the reply as an "official" type reply hence a lot of at least my confusion.

I'm actually not sure why it makes sense to people when there's no correlation between the two aside from the both of them needing to interact with the applicant. The beta-readers have nothing to do with the app team unless the app team member decides to split his or her time with beta-reading prior to the app cycle. When you say a 'common misconception', how common is common? We're going to work on making this clearer in the revisions we are making to the app form and the guides/reserves pages, etc.

Regardless of whether the reply comes from the mod or the app team, the answers to all the questions related to this post would also be the same. I understand what you're saying regarding the confusion (we've forgotten to update the app team list, which is on the profile page, but we'll get to that in a moment and move it and the pertinent information to the mod contact page), but I also don't understand why it matters if a fellow player who happens to know what's going on behind the app scene, has the agreement of the mods to answer things for them when they can't, and is willing to help out, can answer the same thing and in faster time. At any rate, this may be a discussion that should be left in another avenue, since it's already rather out of topic in this post. The information should be updated in the mod contact page soonly.

I'd have to tally it up to be sure but I did notice it being mentioned a few times in different responses to this entry and in various discussions about it. Sorry I don't have anything more specific.

And I think it's more that you don't know if someone IS coming from a position of knowledge or is just putting forth what they believe is true. There was a lot of misconceptions, different reading of things and a lot of differing opinions, and without any knowledge that the person who was speaking was actually involved or in the know, it came out as just another voice in the crowd, if that makes sense? Having something be clearly marked as coming from someone who DOES know what's going on I think goes a long way to clearing up confusion.

Sorry for the off topic.

We apologize for all the confusion and stress this has caused -- we've already taken action to remedy this in the mod contact and reserves page (still under construction, but changed significantly to make some things clearer). Thank you for your patience and understanding, and we hope to fix things in the near future for everyone!

...but I also don't understand why it matters if a fellow player who happens to know what's going on behind the app scene, has the agreement of the mods to answer things for them when they can't, and is willing to help out, can answer the same thing and in faster time.

has the agreement of the mods to answer things for them when they can't

But if nobody ever says this important part, how are we supposed to know that they have your agreement to speak for you? :( It was never mentioned or brought up anywhere as far as I know which made it look as if the app team members were suddenly trying to do the mods' job without any reason or justification to do it to me. Hence my confusion and question about it. Sorry if I'm missing something really obvious.

Edited 2011-10-27 19:38 (UTC)

Yes, we see where the mistake in the matter is, now! We're already making revisions to some of our mod pages as we speak to reflect this information, so people aren't confused in the future. We apologize for any stress this particular confusion has caused -- but thank you very much for being understanding!

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lionborn.livejournal.com - 2011-10-29 00:46 (UTC) - Expand

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soul_mods - 2011-10-29 17:27 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, thanks for clarifying this since it IS confusing to think about. My problem with it was that I saw it repeatedly come up as an argument for how the new beta-readers would be good and make things easier for the mods, app team and players as well and that people shouldn't make a fuss, but nobody expanded on how it ought to help the mods and app teams since it indicates more work for them rather than less. Repeated often enough and with enough conviction yet no explanation given it was no far jump to make you want to wonder if there actually is some way that having beta-reads could make the load of those checking the apps less heavy to a considerable amount and then run with what seems the next logical conclusion - no matter how unlikely it'd be considered on its own - as an option for a worst case. Being worried, the lack of exact information and having enough time to come up with worst case scenarios is no good breeding ground for calm logic, I fear. Thanks for explaining this for once and all.

As for the betas, I already said that I think that it is a good idea although it may still have some details to consider like what to do if somebody really blames and lashes out at their beta if their application gets rejected after all (this is the internet, it CAN happen). Other people brought those things up as well and you replied to them in a positive manner, so I think we can consider this point settled, I hope you agree.

The new review system (for the character information section) was what we were constantly referring to when talking about the change being easier on the mods and the app team, not the beta-reading system, but we see where the confusion could have come from. We'll be clearer in the future and thank you for your patience in letting us clarify these things!

Hi,

+ Shared guidelines were planned from the beginning and are forthcoming.
+ You are not limited to a single beta. You can request for others or ask for volunteer beta readers. Betas are also optional, so applicants are not required to ask for one; it is entirely possible to do the app on your own.
+ If you decide to apply at the last minute then that is your decision. Your application will be judged the same as any other.

Responsibility should not fall to the beta reader. The application for CFUD is based on how well an applicant appears to fit into the gaming culture there. The CFUD application is more intuitive, and there are many nuances to that process not at all present in the SC application. This alone guarantees a different beta experience and process. Beta-readers are meant as helpers for new players who are without contacts or friends in the game, but if you view having someone else discussing your application with you to be an obstacle or know the process well enough to do the app on your own, you are free to do without one.

+ No. Partial transformations are still on a case-by-case basis, but most weapons likely will have access to one. If you aren’t sure about a specific weapon, ask.
+ Justin and Giriko are Deathscythe-level Weapons, so are in possession of a fair amount of power. They had to work very hard (or murder many people) to reach that stage. It is still possible, but you may have to work together with a team (not necessarily a meister), at least initially, to achieve it.
+ For one of the best examples, look at Ryoki’s Weapon Ability. I really would like the player's permission to use it.
+ Meisters don’t require a guide; they choose from a list or create their own power on a case-by-case basis (which then gets added to the evolving list).
+ Examples were planned from the beginning and are forthcoming. They will go on a separate page, but be linked to on the application.

I hope these help.

Juu already gave permission! But I went on vacation before I got the email!

-- Yukeh

Meisters don’t require a guide; they choose from a list or create their own power on a case-by-case basis (which then gets added to the evolving list).

I think a short guide on how to come up with or choose a meister ability would still be helpful! I know when I've apped Meisters my main reason for choosing abilities was because they sounded cool, not because they fit into the SE universe. I've never had my Meisters use their abilities either, and part of the reason for that is definitely because SC doesn't have very in-depth info about how they work (unless there's something buried somewhere?). I realize that Weapons are a more unusual concept and require more explanation, but right now it kind of seems like Weapon appers have tons of info and Meister appers still have to make stuff up as they go along.

Can do. Actually, after this application snaffu gets dealt with, next on my plate is a primer dealing with Soul Eater concepts like 'Resonance.' That should help also.

Thank you, that would also be a huge help!

Gotcha! I think we managed to sort out all questions and misunderstandings over Plurk, sorry if I came off as too rude. This was not my day at all. Please feel free to contact me about it if there's still any issue left, I'd hate to end this with hurt feelings on any side!

I'd also like to second what Adeline said above, adding in my two cents a day by saying that having an essay on Weapons and only one line on Meisters would look a bit one-sided. :) Maybe adding info about resonantion and all the flavors it comes with next to the info about the Meister abilities and how to come up with new ones for their section might be a nice idea?

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MODPOST 1/2

run away, it's me again

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an afterthought!

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Pardon my cutting in/hijacking here

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sorry for jumping in, this should be my last comment

Re: sorry for jumping in, this should be my last comment

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flee it's me

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Re: flee it's me

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but you taste so good~